tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post5629842228470656706..comments2023-10-23T08:30:27.197-07:00Comments on Luthermatrix: Being Bi-vocationalChristopherhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-22624898451705323492010-12-08T21:12:18.016-08:002010-12-08T21:12:18.016-08:00@ Anon-Pastor-Anna
I guess I would begin by lettin...@ Anon-Pastor-Anna<br />I guess I would begin by letting you know I am praying about your situation. I can only imagine the sense of betrayal and frustration you are feeling.<br />Your description “I can pontificate” speaks both to your humor, as well as to the urgency of Kate’s “Skills” comment.<br />A question I would have is do you think the ELCA should go the route of less training for Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-49465847406476012362010-12-08T20:37:41.594-08:002010-12-08T20:37:41.594-08:00@-D
While I agree that word and sacrament are the ...@-D<br />While I agree that word and sacrament are the central things of my vocation I do think my training has also prepared me for the particularities of both a teaching ministry as well as the “chaplain” aspect of parish ministry. Additionally I have found some gifts in disciple making. While these may not be directly Lutheran Confessions type of stuff I think it is important and not Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-18635512341773665452010-12-08T14:18:42.963-08:002010-12-08T14:18:42.963-08:00@SA-Good point. We often do not talk about money e...@SA-Good point. We often do not talk about money easily. One thing my intern supervisor made very clear was that he tithed. It was a small thing, but he was consistent about that, and talked about it more than I think most Lutheran pastors do. It isn’t “just stewardship” but in fact an aspect of discipleship.<br />And now I’m off to class, will respond to PA and D later… I’ve not forgotten you Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-47548684148707603262010-12-08T14:14:53.068-08:002010-12-08T14:14:53.068-08:00@LP- Why is it that churchs all want a full-time p...@LP- Why is it that churchs all want a full-time pastor? Do you know what the process is to do a federated church, or alternatively get called into one of our ecumenical partner churches?<br />Do you know off hand how the mission developer has paid for his 3 previous theological degrees? I will have 2 masters level religion degrees when I start the first call hunt, and around 80,000 dollars of Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-47469014104412311412010-12-08T14:03:48.908-08:002010-12-08T14:03:48.908-08:00@KD-Just some gentle pushback, I would say the M.D...@KD-Just some gentle pushback, I would say the M.Div. does an okay job at skills training, for example three hundred clinical hours, a year of internship, and a year of field education. As for the question of vocational work versus upkeep work, other folk are pointing this out too.Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-37513113099632429612010-12-08T09:41:16.522-08:002010-12-08T09:41:16.522-08:00Jesus called Peter when he was a fisherman, he cal...Jesus called Peter when he was a fisherman, he called Paul who was a tent-maker by trade and he called me as a college student. When push came to shove Peter could fish, Paul could make tents and I can pontificate, which neither puts food on the table nor pays for the fancy Graduate degree the ELCA required for me to be ordained. <br /><br />As an unemployed ELCA pastor, who has been seeking a Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-20722417204169709602010-12-08T07:52:07.114-08:002010-12-08T07:52:07.114-08:00Chris - I did want to add that I have looked at mi...Chris - I did want to add that I have looked at mission development models from outside the ELCA to see how they work. There are some models where the mission developer is intentionally bi-vocational from the very beginning. Some never draw a salary from the sponsoring denomination/judicatory, leaving all funds they receive to sink into building the community. <br /><br />My wife worked with one LutherPunkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09714831474356724194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-15490260332918160702010-12-08T06:17:38.341-08:002010-12-08T06:17:38.341-08:00I think that part of the issue here is the definit...I think that part of the issue here is the definition and scope of the ordained ministry. The scope of the ordained ministry is actually rather small--it is the proclamation of the Gospel through Word and Sacrament. This is what ordination means and grants.<br /><br />Check the Confessions again and see where pastoral care and committee responsibilities appear. The problem here is that these veryDerekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16867349269384044767noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-49874231866378287572010-12-08T05:06:30.413-08:002010-12-08T05:06:30.413-08:00Christopher - these are worthy reflections. Thank...Christopher - these are worthy reflections. Thanks for posting them.<br /><br />One point none of us have broached thus far, though, is financial stewardship and how it relates to the life of the church. Were we pastors better at 1) modeling generous giving and 2) encouraging (and even prodding) our members to do the same, some of these difficulties would disappear. Not all, of course, Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00157331552693781962noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-17673410090340114002010-12-08T04:38:33.802-08:002010-12-08T04:38:33.802-08:00Sadly the reality is that this is where we are goi...Sadly the reality is that this is where we are going, and in some ways it doesn't really matter why. I've been at both ends of the spectrum. In my first call I was an associate at a larger congregation with plenty of money. It was the kind of place where I could raise $20k at a single wine tasting for various ministries. Now I am serving a tiny storefront where we have to scrape just to LutherPunkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09714831474356724194noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-78541185467431563042010-12-06T22:07:47.616-08:002010-12-06T22:07:47.616-08:00I remember a car ride with a pastor/mentor from un...I remember a car ride with a pastor/mentor from undergrad a couple of summers ago. He talked to me about it being a good idea for pastors to be cross-trained (at the time I was in grad school for social work). He thought the two would go well for me. And I don't necessarily disagree. Chris, you are one of the most disgustingly smart people I know. And while you certainly break many of Katie Drefkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01479798483851940999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-45966099505324245772010-12-04T19:22:10.324-08:002010-12-04T19:22:10.324-08:00@ Stina-Yeah, if Lutherans are going to talk about...@ Stina-Yeah, if Lutherans are going to talk about the common priesthood and variety of gifts we should affirm more clearly that vocation is something for everyone.<br />@ Gary-Any thoughts of what a pastor could be and might not be? <br />I suppose I do not know where the idea of on-call pastor comes from. I guess it is often seen as a good idea to have someone trained to think theologically andChristopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-44193527390927475682010-12-04T13:19:21.642-08:002010-12-04T13:19:21.642-08:00@rob-I think there is a decreased commitment to ti...@rob-I think there is a decreased commitment to tithing, but I also think there is a more general decreased commitment to church. While some of this has to do with pastors accruing wealth and behaving badly in a variety of ways, I think there is a deeper malaise going on in North America regarding church, trust in institutions, as well as activities that involve community in general.<br />As I Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-7797092216688602352010-12-04T13:18:26.645-08:002010-12-04T13:18:26.645-08:00Chris,
You are right to point these things out. I...Chris,<br /><br />You are right to point these things out. I believe that the bi-vocational possibility has always been there, but the expectation is arising because of economic concerns as so many peers have noted. As someone who has been discerning a bi-vocational call to teaching in schools as well as pastoral ministry, I feel that stronger descriptions of individual pastoral calls are Gary-Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15148271581036390461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-77180640654743558802010-12-04T13:12:44.564-08:002010-12-04T13:12:44.564-08:00Preach it, brother. Vocation, as the word implies,...Preach it, brother. Vocation, as the word implies, is that to which we are "called." I indeed feel called to multiple facets of life, and the one I'm getting paid for happens to be ministry in an ordained sense. Your statement about that language lessening the vocational call of laity is crucial, and what about the lay ministry that we ask of our members? Is that not vocation?stinal81https://www.blogger.com/profile/11107073967015883465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-49250060789688314532010-12-04T12:37:32.177-08:002010-12-04T12:37:32.177-08:00I read this with great interest. The concept of &q...I read this with great interest. The concept of "bi-vocation", or as you illustrate "quad-vocation", or any other numeric variation, is thought provoking. <br /><br />A pastor is called to serve the Lord and His people. Jesus called his disciples and asked them to drop everything (including family) to follow Him and to preach the good news. Can a pastor do justice to a bi- or Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-48245155017810228762010-12-04T11:30:49.839-08:002010-12-04T11:30:49.839-08:00@Chris-They have not prepared us for bi-vocaitonal...@Chris-They have not prepared us for bi-vocaitonal ministry as far as I have seen. One student asked how to balance the two jobs (for example you're serving beers at the local pub and you get a call that someone has been put on life support, do you leave the pub and possibly get fired or stay and not be pastor to someone in deepest need?). The answer we got was that that's something we&#Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07304298306127392428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-62708572630793109632010-12-04T10:41:37.815-08:002010-12-04T10:41:37.815-08:00The "bi-vocational" language might not b...The "bi-vocational" language might not be theologically very precise, as you point out. It refers, as far as I can see, to the need to have the ability to work part-time as a pastor and part-time or full-time in a profession that can offer adequate compensation. The reality is that the church has a decreasing capacity to pay 10,000ish pastors full time salary and benefits. Thus, we Chrishttp://www.lutheranzephyr.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5362125.post-18661673417837134652010-12-04T09:49:01.010-08:002010-12-04T09:49:01.010-08:00Chris- I like this a lot. It's really importa...Chris- I like this a lot. It's really important to clarify that the vocation of a pastor has always been multifaceted.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11857524278213563058noreply@blogger.com